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	<title>Comments on: Research and professional track students</title>
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		<title>By: Training, Integration, and Identity: A Roundtable Discussion of Undergraduate and Professional Master&#8217;s Programs in iSchools : together, in a sense</title>
		<link>http://blog.logicalrealism.org/2006/10/29/research-and-professional-track-students/comment-page-1/#comment-13189</link>
		<dc:creator>Training, Integration, and Identity: A Roundtable Discussion of Undergraduate and Professional Master&#8217;s Programs in iSchools : together, in a sense</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.logicalrealism.org/?p=12#comment-13189</guid>
		<description>[...] is a topic that I started giving more thought around the time of the 2006 iConference, and I am looking forward to conversations February.   [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is a topic that I started giving more thought around the time of the 2006 iConference, and I am looking forward to conversations February.   [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sean</title>
		<link>http://blog.logicalrealism.org/2006/10/29/research-and-professional-track-students/comment-page-1/#comment-1499</link>
		<dc:creator>sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2007 02:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.logicalrealism.org/?p=12#comment-1499</guid>
		<description>I certainly underestimated the time it takes to mentor an undergraduate or masters&#039; student to produce good research. I&#039;m more aware of this now than in October and I&#039;ll be even more aware of it in a few years.

That doesn&#039;t give SI and other programs a free pass on tackling the issue, though. My critique is about more than the number of opportunities*, it&#039;s also about the way in which some courses present research methods to users that makes me uncomfortable.

I applaud the way that CSCW (SI689) exposes SI students to the intersection of research and practice. Masters students complete a semester-long practical project (most often an evaluation of an existing CSCW system), yet the day-to-day discussion in class is tied primarily to published research. Additionally, students are twice asked to critique a paper. I believe that students leave this course understanding that current research often does apply to CSCW product design. They also know that while they may not have substantial research training, they can still pick up papers and ask questions about the findings.

This does not always happen. There are also courses that sometimes place &quot;research&quot; on an unreachable pedestal for students and suggest that the best that practitioners can achieve is a haphazard, rushed approach, the sort of approach that leads to data too noisy to use in practice. We should expect a level of rigor appropriate for the task, whether it is academic research or product design.

There are also specific bits and pieces training associated with particular methods that I still feel are lacking. I&#039;ll go back to human subjects training. During 501, SI asks all students to interview people in outside organizations. Students should receive training and have the opportunity to discuss the ethics and risks associated with these activities at least at the level of the basic modules in eresearch.

----

*Since the fall, I&#039;ve substantially reevaluated my position on research opportunities for masters students at SI. They exist -- both with faculty members and PhD students -- in reasonable quantities, and I think it is okay that students have to work a bit to find one. There is always room for improvement, particularly in making existing opportunities visible, but on the balance,  SI does alright in this respect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I certainly underestimated the time it takes to mentor an undergraduate or masters&#8217; student to produce good research. I&#8217;m more aware of this now than in October and I&#8217;ll be even more aware of it in a few years.</p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t give SI and other programs a free pass on tackling the issue, though. My critique is about more than the number of opportunities*, it&#8217;s also about the way in which some courses present research methods to users that makes me uncomfortable.</p>
<p>I applaud the way that CSCW (SI689) exposes SI students to the intersection of research and practice. Masters students complete a semester-long practical project (most often an evaluation of an existing CSCW system), yet the day-to-day discussion in class is tied primarily to published research. Additionally, students are twice asked to critique a paper. I believe that students leave this course understanding that current research often does apply to CSCW product design. They also know that while they may not have substantial research training, they can still pick up papers and ask questions about the findings.</p>
<p>This does not always happen. There are also courses that sometimes place &#8220;research&#8221; on an unreachable pedestal for students and suggest that the best that practitioners can achieve is a haphazard, rushed approach, the sort of approach that leads to data too noisy to use in practice. We should expect a level of rigor appropriate for the task, whether it is academic research or product design.</p>
<p>There are also specific bits and pieces training associated with particular methods that I still feel are lacking. I&#8217;ll go back to human subjects training. During 501, SI asks all students to interview people in outside organizations. Students should receive training and have the opportunity to discuss the ethics and risks associated with these activities at least at the level of the basic modules in eresearch.</p>
<p>&#8212;-</p>
<p>*Since the fall, I&#8217;ve substantially reevaluated my position on research opportunities for masters students at SI. They exist &#8212; both with faculty members and PhD students &#8212; in reasonable quantities, and I think it is okay that students have to work a bit to find one. There is always room for improvement, particularly in making existing opportunities visible, but on the balance,  SI does alright in this respect.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://blog.logicalrealism.org/2006/10/29/research-and-professional-track-students/comment-page-1/#comment-1497</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2007 01:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.logicalrealism.org/?p=12#comment-1497</guid>
		<description>One thing you understandably overlook is time.   Time on the part of the professors and other research staff.   As I&#039;m sure you know, professors are extremely busy.  Time, in fact, is generally the scarcest resource for professional researchers.   It would be great to get every masters student involved in some part of their research projects.   But masters students and undergraduate students, probably because of their inexperience and lack of formal training, usually require a good bit of mentoring and training before they become productive members of research teams.

It is not that professors don&#039;t want their students involved in research.  It generally has more to do with the fact that there are enormous pressures on professors to produce research at a fast pace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing you understandably overlook is time.   Time on the part of the professors and other research staff.   As I&#8217;m sure you know, professors are extremely busy.  Time, in fact, is generally the scarcest resource for professional researchers.   It would be great to get every masters student involved in some part of their research projects.   But masters students and undergraduate students, probably because of their inexperience and lack of formal training, usually require a good bit of mentoring and training before they become productive members of research teams.</p>
<p>It is not that professors don&#8217;t want their students involved in research.  It generally has more to do with the fact that there are enormous pressures on professors to produce research at a fast pace.</p>
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		<title>By: sean</title>
		<link>http://blog.logicalrealism.org/2006/10/29/research-and-professional-track-students/comment-page-1/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Nov 2006 23:34:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.logicalrealism.org/?p=12#comment-32</guid>
		<description>These are good points. I wondered if some of the headache could be resolved if Michigan offered a PhD program in which people could get an MSI along the way, but that would probably reduce the exposure professional-track MSIs would have to research to levels even below what it is now. Since I feel current exposure is too low relative to what everyone has, I quickly back away from this idea.

The accreditation issue is an interesting problem outside of the iSchools too. With my previous institution being new, we were super-worried about ABET acceditation (more so than we should have been). If you imagined the possible space in which you could create a new engineering school&#039;s curriculum, it&#039;d be this big cloud. Adding ABET constraints would draw a smaller circle within that cloud, and then our fears and efforts to be responsible went and put us in a smaller box within that circle within that cloud. I don&#039;t know enough about SI yet to be able to tell if any of that is happening here, but now I&#039;m wondering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are good points. I wondered if some of the headache could be resolved if Michigan offered a PhD program in which people could get an MSI along the way, but that would probably reduce the exposure professional-track MSIs would have to research to levels even below what it is now. Since I feel current exposure is too low relative to what everyone has, I quickly back away from this idea.</p>
<p>The accreditation issue is an interesting problem outside of the iSchools too. With my previous institution being new, we were super-worried about ABET acceditation (more so than we should have been). If you imagined the possible space in which you could create a new engineering school&#8217;s curriculum, it&#8217;d be this big cloud. Adding ABET constraints would draw a smaller circle within that cloud, and then our fears and efforts to be responsible went and put us in a smaller box within that circle within that cloud. I don&#8217;t know enough about SI yet to be able to tell if any of that is happening here, but now I&#8217;m wondering.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://blog.logicalrealism.org/2006/10/29/research-and-professional-track-students/comment-page-1/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Nov 2006 15:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.logicalrealism.org/?p=12#comment-30</guid>
		<description>There are pretty different user needs between students on a research versus professional track, and these aren&#039;t really addressed in a professional program...  I&#039;m starting to believe that the ALA accreditation paradigm is becoming more and more problematic for iSchools that want to be broader than just LIS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are pretty different user needs between students on a research versus professional track, and these aren&#8217;t really addressed in a professional program&#8230;  I&#8217;m starting to believe that the ALA accreditation paradigm is becoming more and more problematic for iSchools that want to be broader than just LIS.</p>
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		<title>By: sean</title>
		<link>http://blog.logicalrealism.org/2006/10/29/research-and-professional-track-students/comment-page-1/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Oct 2006 21:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.logicalrealism.org/?p=12#comment-27</guid>
		<description>Andrea, I&#039;ll agree that any research requirement should not be too much of a burden for the folks that are here for credentialling. That said, I do think that many schools could stand to do better at preparing all of our graduates to engage with the research methods they use. Serving everyone research vegetables might not be the right answer, but I think it&#039;s one way to get there.

The challenge of incentivizing PIs to train masters students to be good researchers only to watch them graduate as soon as they are ready is very real, and I think figuring out how to best do that is a topic worthy of some serious conversation. I think at least part of the answer will extend back to undergraduate preparation for this sort of work.

I&#039;ve used a somewhat sloppy definition of research (or perhaps no definition at all) here, so I want to clarify that a bit. I think that the universal minimum for SI graduates should be an ability to engage with and question the methods used in their disciplines. This can be achieved outside of more traditional research projects through course projects, so long as students are encouraged to try variations of methods and discuss what did and did not work, and why.

Beyond that minimum, we should endeavor to help anyone who wants a more traditional research experience to be part of their education find a way. On an individual level, this seems to happen pretty well at SI. Institutionally, though, I don&#039;t think that this is really part of what we value (yet).

I&#039;ve also noticed the occassional attitude that masters students are unable or unwilling to participate in research, which definitely makes me feel a bit sad. I think there&#039;s a trend in higher education of underestimating students -- this was influenced quite a bit by my undergraduate experiences, and I&#039;ll quote Olin President Rick Miller&#039;s &lt;a rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; href=&quot;http://www.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list/hiedfuture/2nd-hearing/miller2.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;testimony before the Spelling Commission&lt;/a&gt; on student capabilities:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Students are more capable than expected. Perhaps the most important conclusion we reached in our experimentation with bright engineering students is that they are far more capable of independent learning in truly challenging situations than we expected. During the “Olin Partner Year” when 30 students worked closely with our founding faculty on educational experiments, we found that students rarely failed to achieve specific results under pressure when challenged to do so in small teams. We also found that they make highly responsible and remarkably mature and insightful colleagues in making important fundamental decisions in many aspects of the educational enterprise. We suspect that students are frequently under-estimated as partners in the educational process in other institutions. Furthermore, when students are better challenged and given real responsibilities, they appear to become much more engaged in their own learning process, learn faster and more deeply, and become more committed to completing the program.

For example, we asked five students who had recently graduated from high school (but had never taken a college course) to design, build, and demonstrate a pulse oximeter (a medical instrument for measuring the oxygen content and pulse rate of a patient’s blood) within five weeks. They had never heard of the instrument, but were eager to attempt the challenge... Within five weeks they produced a working prototype that calibrated well against a hospital instrument! In the process, they not only learned enough about the device to build and operate one, but they achieved an enormous sense of achievement and genuinely enjoyed the intense experience. None of the students were fooled into believing that they had learned all they need to be electrical engineers, but instead they now have a heightened sense of curiosity and interest about transistors and circuit design that tend to motivate them later in courses in this area.

As a result of this and many similar experiences, we developed a teambased project-centered educational approach at Olin College that is a little like learning to “swim in the deep end.” Each semester students spend at least 25% of their time in team-based design/build projects in which they are expected to “do” first and then “learn” later. More traditional approaches in engineering have assumed that students need several years of prerequisite course material in physics, math, and circuit design before attempting any such challenging projects.

The principle of engaging students in learning by discovery is now deeply woven into the fabric of the Olin educational environment...

...I suspect the principle is generalizable beyond engineering to other disciplines as well. Bright and creative students love a challenge, and appear to be far more capable of success in challenging situations than is typically assumed.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Miller&#039;s testimony digresses beyond the topic of this discussion-- whether or not masters students&#039; ability to research is underestimated -- but I think it&#039;s quite illustrative of what students can do when turned loose on a problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrea, I&#8217;ll agree that any research requirement should not be too much of a burden for the folks that are here for credentialling. That said, I do think that many schools could stand to do better at preparing all of our graduates to engage with the research methods they use. Serving everyone research vegetables might not be the right answer, but I think it&#8217;s one way to get there.</p>
<p>The challenge of incentivizing PIs to train masters students to be good researchers only to watch them graduate as soon as they are ready is very real, and I think figuring out how to best do that is a topic worthy of some serious conversation. I think at least part of the answer will extend back to undergraduate preparation for this sort of work.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve used a somewhat sloppy definition of research (or perhaps no definition at all) here, so I want to clarify that a bit. I think that the universal minimum for SI graduates should be an ability to engage with and question the methods used in their disciplines. This can be achieved outside of more traditional research projects through course projects, so long as students are encouraged to try variations of methods and discuss what did and did not work, and why.</p>
<p>Beyond that minimum, we should endeavor to help anyone who wants a more traditional research experience to be part of their education find a way. On an individual level, this seems to happen pretty well at SI. Institutionally, though, I don&#8217;t think that this is really part of what we value (yet).</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also noticed the occassional attitude that masters students are unable or unwilling to participate in research, which definitely makes me feel a bit sad. I think there&#8217;s a trend in higher education of underestimating students &#8212; this was influenced quite a bit by my undergraduate experiences, and I&#8217;ll quote Olin President Rick Miller&#8217;s <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list/hiedfuture/2nd-hearing/miller2.pdf" rel="nofollow">testimony before the Spelling Commission</a> on student capabilities:</p>
<blockquote><p>Students are more capable than expected. Perhaps the most important conclusion we reached in our experimentation with bright engineering students is that they are far more capable of independent learning in truly challenging situations than we expected. During the “Olin Partner Year” when 30 students worked closely with our founding faculty on educational experiments, we found that students rarely failed to achieve specific results under pressure when challenged to do so in small teams. We also found that they make highly responsible and remarkably mature and insightful colleagues in making important fundamental decisions in many aspects of the educational enterprise. We suspect that students are frequently under-estimated as partners in the educational process in other institutions. Furthermore, when students are better challenged and given real responsibilities, they appear to become much more engaged in their own learning process, learn faster and more deeply, and become more committed to completing the program.</p>
<p>For example, we asked five students who had recently graduated from high school (but had never taken a college course) to design, build, and demonstrate a pulse oximeter (a medical instrument for measuring the oxygen content and pulse rate of a patient’s blood) within five weeks. They had never heard of the instrument, but were eager to attempt the challenge&#8230; Within five weeks they produced a working prototype that calibrated well against a hospital instrument! In the process, they not only learned enough about the device to build and operate one, but they achieved an enormous sense of achievement and genuinely enjoyed the intense experience. None of the students were fooled into believing that they had learned all they need to be electrical engineers, but instead they now have a heightened sense of curiosity and interest about transistors and circuit design that tend to motivate them later in courses in this area.</p>
<p>As a result of this and many similar experiences, we developed a teambased project-centered educational approach at Olin College that is a little like learning to “swim in the deep end.” Each semester students spend at least 25% of their time in team-based design/build projects in which they are expected to “do” first and then “learn” later. More traditional approaches in engineering have assumed that students need several years of prerequisite course material in physics, math, and circuit design before attempting any such challenging projects.</p>
<p>The principle of engaging students in learning by discovery is now deeply woven into the fabric of the Olin educational environment&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;I suspect the principle is generalizable beyond engineering to other disciplines as well. Bright and creative students love a challenge, and appear to be far more capable of success in challenging situations than is typically assumed.</p></blockquote>
<p>Miller&#8217;s testimony digresses beyond the topic of this discussion&#8211; whether or not masters students&#8217; ability to research is underestimated &#8212; but I think it&#8217;s quite illustrative of what students can do when turned loose on a problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://blog.logicalrealism.org/2006/10/29/research-and-professional-track-students/comment-page-1/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Oct 2006 18:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.logicalrealism.org/?p=12#comment-24</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a fundamental incentive problem in involving MSI students in research as well--from a PI perspective, by the time you identify a sharp cookie, find them a spot on your project, get them trained, and finally get them doing something, they graduate.  It is a complete drag on the PI to continually re-recruit and re-train students; it&#039;s a completely inefficient use of time resources in a continually time-crunched environment.  I&#039;m not saying that&#039;s a good excuse, but it&#039;s a systemic inhibitor to involving MSI students in research.

Like Noor, I&#039;ve also heard the (absurd) opinion that MSI students aren&#039;t interested in/capable of research.  That&#039;s a circular problem with not having/receiving research training, and I think also partly an outcome of the professional focus of the program.  I get the impression that this is an issue everywhere, not just at SI.  In any case, I&#039;m going to politely disagree with your opinion that everyone should eat research vegetables, as (let&#039;s be honest) many of students are in for credentialling and those folks don&#039;t need another barrier to becoming professionals; the requirement of an expensive degree is quite enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a fundamental incentive problem in involving MSI students in research as well&#8211;from a PI perspective, by the time you identify a sharp cookie, find them a spot on your project, get them trained, and finally get them doing something, they graduate.  It is a complete drag on the PI to continually re-recruit and re-train students; it&#8217;s a completely inefficient use of time resources in a continually time-crunched environment.  I&#8217;m not saying that&#8217;s a good excuse, but it&#8217;s a systemic inhibitor to involving MSI students in research.</p>
<p>Like Noor, I&#8217;ve also heard the (absurd) opinion that MSI students aren&#8217;t interested in/capable of research.  That&#8217;s a circular problem with not having/receiving research training, and I think also partly an outcome of the professional focus of the program.  I get the impression that this is an issue everywhere, not just at SI.  In any case, I&#8217;m going to politely disagree with your opinion that everyone should eat research vegetables, as (let&#8217;s be honest) many of students are in for credentialling and those folks don&#8217;t need another barrier to becoming professionals; the requirement of an expensive degree is quite enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://blog.logicalrealism.org/2006/10/29/research-and-professional-track-students/comment-page-1/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Oct 2006 15:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.logicalrealism.org/?p=12#comment-22</guid>
		<description>About a year and a half in, I&#039;d have to say that it&#039;s easier to tunnel into super interesting research &lt;strong&gt;outside&lt;/strong&gt; of SI than it is inside SI itself. SI students get more respect outside the department than in; this is one of the indicators that makes me bet the department is living on borrowed time. (Of course, on an academic timescale, it may last quite a while on that borrowed time.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About a year and a half in, I&#8217;d have to say that it&#8217;s easier to tunnel into super interesting research <strong>outside</strong> of SI than it is inside SI itself. SI students get more respect outside the department than in; this is one of the indicators that makes me bet the department is living on borrowed time. (Of course, on an academic timescale, it may last quite a while on that borrowed time.)</p>
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		<title>By: Noor</title>
		<link>http://blog.logicalrealism.org/2006/10/29/research-and-professional-track-students/comment-page-1/#comment-21</link>
		<dc:creator>Noor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Oct 2006 05:18:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.logicalrealism.org/?p=12#comment-21</guid>
		<description>There is a traditional view in academia (well, at least SI) that master&#039;s students are not interested in research (and some faculty even believe that master&#039;s students aren&#039;t even capable of research).  I think the split campus situation at SI further deepens this divide - PhD and master&#039;s students don&#039;t really get a chance to get to know each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a traditional view in academia (well, at least SI) that master&#8217;s students are not interested in research (and some faculty even believe that master&#8217;s students aren&#8217;t even capable of research).  I think the split campus situation at SI further deepens this divide &#8211; PhD and master&#8217;s students don&#8217;t really get a chance to get to know each other.</p>
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